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| Unfortunate sequence of events.... |
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| dgolding |
 Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Yatiri
Joined: 16 May 2001
Posts: 668
Location: Switzerland
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| This is getting long and boring. I've made my choice, I can walk the streets at night, my family is safe, I don't worry over my childrens safety if they are outside in the evening. If you want to live in a gated community with armed guards, ghettoize your cities and are too scared to walk down a street without a gun in your pocket - fine. Your choice. |
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| warrenJ |
| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Apprentice
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 29
Location: AUSTRALIA
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| Australia's "gun crime" is certainly lower since they banned guns. |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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Yes, indeed "gun crime" is down in Britain and Australia.
| Quote: |
"There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998." |
But since the Australian Govnernment spent over $500 Million Dollars to confiscate and destroy just over 640,000 guns from the Law Abiding Citizens of Australia in their compulsatory "Buy Back" the violent crime and property crime rate has dramatically and steadily increased.
| Quote: |
The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations.
Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized.
The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime. |
Great!...
Gun Crime is down in Britain and Australia. You and dgolding are right. I believe you both of you. Yes! Yes! Yes!
Hey everyone, listen up...
"GUN CRIME IS DOWN IN BRITAIN AND ASTRALIA!"
Meanwhile every other sort of crime that is trackable is UP.
And don't tell me that crime rates are related to un-employment. Crime rates are affected by everything from employment, to drugs to the weather.
Oddly enough, here in the USA civilian ownership of firearms has been on the increase for the last twelve years and the violent/property crime rates have been dropping steadily except for places like, Detroit, Washington DC, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and the entire Socialist Republic of California.
I'm gunna sign off now and listen to my President deliver his State of the Union Speach.
_________________
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| dgolding |
| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Yatiri
Joined: 16 May 2001
Posts: 668
Location: Switzerland
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Seeing that, in the UK it has ALWAYS been illegal to cary a concealed weapon in a public place, that gun-ownership among the public was practically non-existent, HOW has making all guns illegal had ANYTHING to do with any sort of rising crime rate of any kind? The guns were never there in the first place! In my 48 years, I have NEVER knowingly met anyone who owned a gun (or at least would admit to it).
As I've already noted, and you acknowledged there are some very strong economic indicators that can predict crime rates, nd as you say, weather. But to say that rising crime rates are caused by a lack of guns in societies that never had them in the first place...
Stop twisting facts to make them support your particular obsession....there is no support among the UK population for allowing more guns, we don't want to end up like the US - according to your government, 346,000 legitimate guns were stolen between 1987- 1992
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf
How many children are killed playing with their parents' legitmately owned guns? According to this website,
| Quote: |
| Firearms killed 3,365 children and teens 19 and younger in 1999, the latest year that statistics are available. That's nine children every day. Of these, 1,990 children and teens were murdered, 1,078 committed suicide and 214 were victims of accidental shootings, according to the Children's Defense Fund. |
http://atoz.iqhealth.com/atoz/HealthUpdate/Alert02192000.html
Great system, hey? |
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| nathanw |
| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Knight
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 550
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mmm very interesting reading
we all have different views thats what makes us human
to answer a few things
| Quote: |
dgolding
I live in one of the most heavily-armed societies in the world, and it is one of the safest. The difference here being that the guns (usually one per house) are rifles, which are seen as symbols of defence of the country, not to be misused.
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Switzerland does not have a standing army and therefore the populace is treated as a militia and they are allowed to own guns in tehre houses. This is FACT and the reason for this is that they are expected to drop what theya re doing and defend their country if required.
I often quote the fact that there are more guns per household in Switzerland that nearly any other country but their gun crime is practically nil. This is mainly beacuse they are brought up with a "respect" for firearms and that they are not toys.
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csmith28
Yes and it wasn't the first time this elderly gentlemans home had been violated by a thief in the night. I don't give a squirt of Dingo piss how old the thief was. When you invade a persons home you take your chances. |
Tony Martin was the guy in question and to be honest I was appalled at his incarceration. OK he may have been wrong in shooting the guy in question but he was defending his home and to be honest I feel we all have a right to do so.
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With regard to "violent" crime and "gun" crime.
There is a different obviously and while they do not go hand in glove they are very nearly so.
To be honest if anyone broke into my house they would get a sharp shock ie a baseball bat
Legisilation is being changed here to allow people to defend themselves but you still have to be careful
The old adage of an englishman's home is his castle does not stand anymore and I think society is partly if not wholly to blame.
We are not allowed to discipline our children, teachers in schools cannot, police cannot even touch people these days.
When i was growing up there was respect for elders and especially police now it seems that it doesnt matter.
"Policemen are liek traffic signals in new york. All they do is change colour they cannot actually do anything"
In the end it is the persons mind that will control what happens
"GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE DO!!" is a very valid saying
2 things to close on
Dunblane has been mentioned already and I would like to bring up Columbine, another school with a gun tragedy.
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We all have different views so we should all respect others and try and find a middle ground |
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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Columbine was another failure of the American mental health system and a total lack of parental supervision. Those boys should have never been in a classroom; they should have been under professional care. Both had serious mental problems. You are never going to completely prevent insane people from commiting horrible crimes, but everyone should be more interested in getting these people help.
After all, an insane man started the first world war and the second.
_________________
Patrick Goodhart
MQ Admin/Web Developer/Consultant
WebSphere Application Server Admin |
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| nathanw |
| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Knight
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 550
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| PGoodhart wrote: |
Columbine was another failure of the American mental health system and a total lack of parental supervision. Those boys should have never been in a classroom; they should have been under professional care. Both had serious mental problems. You are never going to completely prevent insane people from commiting horrible crimes, but everyone should be more interested in getting these people help.
After all, an insane man started the first world war and the second. |
mmmmmmm agree with yur first statement not so sure about your second
with hindsight we can say that such and such a person was mad but were they?
for instance hitler went to war for a reason but did his insanity exist prior to that or after?
Also you cannot compare mental health with insanity there is a difference
poor mental health does not make a person insane and vice versa
out of curiosity was it the parents fault that those 2 at Columbine were allowed to access guns?
understand your comments about parental control / supervision but I dont think that it necessarily means it was their fault. It goes back to the laws and availability of weapons and person/s selling them
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This sot of argument will never ever be settled in my view but that doesnt mean we should denigate a person for their beliefs
if someone wants to own a weapon then let them but hey resoponsibility has to be taken into account
After all, discounting wars, there are more people killed by cars than by guns everyyear
should we stop people driving? |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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@dgolding
| Quote: |
| Firearms killed 3,365 children and teens 19 and younger in 1999, the latest year that statistics are available. That's nine children every day. Of these, 1,990 children and teens were murdered, 1,078 committed suicide and 214 were victims of accidental shootings, according to the Children's Defense Fund. |
That statistic was gathered by a research institute funded by the Anti-Gun Lobby in the US. It includes as individuals killed by law enforcement as murder victims and includes individuals 18 and 19 years old who are considered to be adults in the USA. Without the 18 and 19 year olds participating the numbers drop signifigantly. Most official un-biased studies regarding Children are done on ages infant(0-4) to Children(5-15).
It also includes as accidental shootings case in which a Juvenile Felon stole a gun and "accidentally shot him/herself or a friend.
Call me silly, but when a 17 year old member of the 9th st Chollo's shoots a 19 year old member of the South Side Homeboys over a Crack Rock I have trouble looking at it like the "traggic death of a child".
But even if those numbers are accurate, "214 were victims of accidental shootings" thats 214 out of a population of almost 300 million. While each of these instances is indeed traggic that number represents a very small percentage.
More Children die in the USA from auto accidents, drownig and medical Mal-Practice, child abuse/neglect, fire and accidents while engaged in sports and play.
So should we ban, automobiles, doctors, water, parents, fire, sports and play?
_________________
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| PGoodhart |
| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Master
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 278
Location: Harrisburg PA
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"out of curiosity was it the parents fault that those 2 at Columbine were allowed to access guns"
Absolutely, these boys had an arsenal accumulated over months, totally illegally, and it was all in their parents homes. (We aren't talking about something smaller then a bread box here.)
Eric Harris and Denise Kelbold were exhibiting bizzare behavior that should have been noticed by their parents...
It was noticed by school officials that frankly couldn't really do anything about it other then complain to the disengaged, essentially absentee, parents.
One does not kill innocent children if they are sane.
Hitler was crazy as a loon by about 1936.. His doctor records indicate this. He was also consuming drugs known to cause psychosis. However, it is convenient to have him as the "evil genius" rather then a puppet. It is easier to blame the dead then the living.
WWI was essentially caused by a single lunatic assaininating an Arch Duke.
_________________
Patrick Goodhart
MQ Admin/Web Developer/Consultant
WebSphere Application Server Admin |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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@pGoodhart
Yeah, I can just imagine life in the Harris or Klebold house.
"Oh, high Eric how was school today?....
I put your clean sweaters in the dresser underneath your portrait of Hitler in the drawer with the pipe bombs and the sawed off shotgun...
Is your little friend coming over for dinner tonight?"
_________________
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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OOH look at this:
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200502/s1295847.htm
Iraqi villagers kill 5 insurgents
By Middle East correspondent Mark Willacy
The residents of a small Iraqi village have killed five insurgents who had attacked them for voting in last weekend's national elections. Several other insurgents were also wounded.
The insurgents raided the village of al-Mudhiryah south of Baghdad after warning its inhabitants not to vote in the election. The villagers fought back, killing five of the insurgents and wounding eight others. The insurgents' cars were then set alight.
Al-Mudhiryah's tribal sheikh says his people are sick of being threatened by Islamic extremists.
_________________
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| bduncan |
| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Padawan
Joined: 11 Apr 2001
Posts: 1554
Location: Silicon Valley
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| Quote: |
| Socialist Republic of California. |
It's funny, outsiders think the whole state is socialist, but we Californians reserve the term for the city of Berkeley, popularly known here as the "People's Republic." 
_________________
Brandon Duncan
IBM Certified MQSeries Specialist
MQSeries.net forum moderator |
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| csmith28 |
| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 1196
Location: Arizona
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@Brandon
Your state flag has a Bear and a Red Star! Very symbolic. 
I realize that not all CA residents are liberal Dumacrat whackjobs but they are most certainly in the majority there in Californicate.
How else could the likes of Grey Davis and Dianne Feinstein be not just elected but re-elected.
Sure,.. sure Davis was bounced out eventually and now you have Arnold who is an improvment but that is not much of an improvement.
He's a fiscal conservative but he still has no idea what the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights is about.
You can't even legally smoke a cigarette in a bar in California.
If you want to legally own a handgun in CA you have to register yourself with the state government. The purpose of this is that eventually when the state of CA bans handgun ownership entirely they will know who all the law abiding citizens that own a handguns so they can collect them up.
Then yet again only the criminals will have handguns. Don't tell me it won't happen. Look what the CA Government did with the SKS Rifle...
Just take a look at this link and tell me that the State of California Law is does not conflict with the Second Amendment of the US Constitution:
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=CA
Not to mention the Fourth Amendment.
_________________
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial. |
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| fjb_saper |
| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20766
Location: LI,NY
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Guys I'll have to take the Fifth on this one.
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| jefflowrey |
| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Grand Poobah
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 19981
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| fjb_saper wrote: |
Guys I'll have to take the Fifth on this one.
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A fifth is awfully big... sure you can't share?
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I am *not* the model of the modern major general. |
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