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| Vitor |
 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| zpat wrote: |
| How many of us would want to change our QWERTY keyboards for a more modern, but totally different design? |
I can get you a room full of bright young things who want exactly that. Including a couple of quite prententious ones a few years back who got dinged for bringing in their own keyboards, which looking like giant wrap round things with 2 blocks of letter & number keys.
They made my eyes cross but that doesn't make them "bad".
80 column cards are a much misunderstand input medium which I have some nostalgia for.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9475
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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We will continue to agree to disagree on this.
Jeff's position seems to be form over function: it's new technology. Johannes Gutenberg's, invention of the printing press in 1468, pretty much solidified the form (format) - a book. HTML solidified the digital format of the book. The function remains the same regardless of the form.
For whatever crazy reason, IBM abandoned the book (and its other forms) in favor of the InfoCenter model.
Me personally, it's like working with a book that has not been bound together. Just lots of pages.
The keyboard analogy misses the mark. A cellphone is still a phone - newer technology, but still the basic function remains.
I guess the folks at Kindle missed a huge opportunity to abandon book-style for its Luddite customer base - just because it's technologically possible.
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ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| mqjeff |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 17447
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| Jeff's position seems to be form over function: |
No. My position is FUNCTION over FORM.
Page breaks interfere with the FUNCTION.
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| Johannes Gutenberg's, invention of the printing press in 1468, pretty much solidified the form (format) - a book. HTML solidified the digital format of the book. The function remains the same regardless of the form. |
Again, what exactly makes a book different than a collection of pages?
And nowhere have I said that I am opposed to HTML formatted documentation.
I've said that I am, and I remain, opposed to PDFs and PAGE BREAKS IN THE MIDDLE OF USABLE CONTENT.
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| For whatever crazy reason, IBM abandoned the book (and its other forms) in favor of the InfoCenter model. |
No.
IBM abandoned the production of PDF formatted documents.
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| Me personally, it's like working with a book that has not been bound together. Just lots of pages. |
So it's a book if I take any random collection of pages and I bind them together? Then it's a book?
So if I take the front page of the new york times for one month and I staple them all together, then it's a book?
And it stops being a book if I take a Gutenberg bible and unbind it?
Even if I then stack those pages back up and read them in order? It's no longer a book?
Your position appears to be one of FORM over FUNCTION. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9475
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| mqjeff wrote: |
Your position appears to be one of FORM over FUNCTION. |
No. For a set of users, form and function become inseparable over time. Replacing QWERTY keyboards with Euro style (as I've had to do when traveling internationally) demonstrates this.
After a lifetime of using phones, and reading books (technical and others), I'm accustomed to what I'm accustomed to.
I refer to .pdf since it was the format IBM distributed its doc digitally. IBM used the much-maligned BookMaanger format for a time. That format was a book.
I'm not sure why I should need to describe a book, but... A book is self-contained - about a subject or collection of subjects. Usually, it progresses (leads the reader) from general to specific. Blah, blah.
It occurs to me that InfoCenter is more database-like than book-like. Databases are good to search, but not to read.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| mqjeff |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 17447
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| It occurs to me that InfoCenter is more database-like than book-like. Databases are good to search, but not to read. |
Again.
The content is the same. |
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| bruce2359 |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9475
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.
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| mqjeff wrote: |
| bruce2359 wrote: |
| It occurs to me that InfoCenter is more database-like than book-like. Databases are good to search, but not to read. |
Again.
The content is the same. |
The content of Dvorak keyboard is the same as QWERTY, too; but ease of use is different.
I don't make this contrast lightly. The InfoCenter format is so different from traditional book, that it makes finding/learning far more difficult for me.
And, for me and others, the InfoCenter format makes content more difficult get at.
_________________
I like deadlines. I like to wave as they pass by.
ב''ה
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live. |
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| mqjeff |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 17447
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| bruce2359 wrote: |
| And, for me and others, the InfoCenter format makes content more difficult get at. |
So, again, the problem is not that "it's not in PDF".
It's that it's "more difficult to get at".
So, how, exactly is it "more difficult to get at"?
Is it that, in order to go from here to here, you can't "turn the page"? You have to click a specific link?
So the problem is that there isn't a "next page" and "previous page" button?
Just to be clear on tone here, I'm not arguing at this point, I'm trying to understand. |
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| rcp_mq |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Centurion
Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 133
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The search feature is unique to infocenter (tho i wish it had smart search). PDF(acrobat) search is so limited.
And for all the book lovers, download a redbook, print it and bind it. It's worth the effort if you really need the book. |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| rcp_mq wrote: |
| And for all the book lovers, download a redbook, print it and bind it. It's worth the effort if you really need the book. |
I don't think anyone's looking for a paper copy.
The Redbooks are still produced as PDFs because, as alluded to above, they're more of a narative. The InfoCenter is no longer PDF because it's seen as a reference.
Frankly I'm good with either. I oppose paper on environmental & space grounds.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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| rcp_mq |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Centurion
Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 133
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| I guess i misread. The topic here is book style! Pro-portable. |
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| mqjeff |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Grand Master
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 17447
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| Vitor wrote: |
| The InfoCenter is no longer PDF because it's seen as a reference. |
To the best of my knowledge, nobody on the documentation team views the MQ or Broker Infocenters as 'reference only'.
There are large sections of it that are explicitly intended to be narrative. And, again, as I've shown elsewhere, newer versions of the MQ info center have more narrative information on more topics than similar pages in older versions of the MQ info center.
You can discuss this with them directly at https://twitter.com/#!/wmqinfocenter |
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| PeterPotkay |
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Poobah
Joined: 15 May 2001
Posts: 7723
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| Vitor wrote: |
| rcp_mq wrote: |
| And for all the book lovers, download a redbook, print it and bind it. It's worth the effort if you really need the book. |
I don't think anyone's looking for a paper copy.
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Actually, some people do. I do. I stare at a computer screen long enough every day. I want the option to print a manual, sit on the coach and read. I want to be able to dog ear page 45, highlight something on 58, jot notes down in the column on page 65, and post sticky notes here and there as I find things I want to bookmark.
I do agree with mqjeff, the content is the same. I don't know if everyone realizes this that is posting in this thread and on the list server thread. But guess what, that point almost makes the argument for us. The InfoCenter format is so not user friendly for people wanting to read they can't see that the content is the same.
A book format has its table of contents up front, Info Center has its on the left side, always. Otherwise all the info contained in the InfoCenter is the same as what would be contained in a PDF of the manual.
Take that Info Center and add 2 features to it and I bet 99% of the complaints go away:
A. Make it easy to print a complete manual, with one click of the button. Don't lecture me about wanting paper, don't give me 53 steps on how to get all the pages printed. System Admin Guide - Right Click...Print. Done.
B. Make the Info Center run online and offline, on PCs, Laptops, tablets, smart phones, my X-Box, anything that a PDF will display on. If you were looking down your nose because I wanted to print a paper copy, I look right back at you when the Info Center won't run on an iPad. You're just as behind the times not supporting mobile devices as I am wanting paper.
C. OK, 1 more. And then add a Next Page and Previous Page button into the Info Center. Its silly, its simple. But there is a reason e-Readers have those 2 buttons and don't instead display the contents of every chapter and most paragraphs and require you to click on them just to advance.
The dictionary comment is interesting. Very few people crack open a dictionary and start reading entry by entry. In this regard, the Info Center could be seen as a dictionary for people that look something up quick. What I think some people don't realize is that a lot of us will take these reference docs and actually want to read them cover to cover. Ya know, like a book. Just make it easier for us.
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Peter Potkay
Keep Calm and MQ On |
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| George Carey |
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:43 am Post subject: forest for the trees |
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Knight
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 500
Location: DC
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PeterP. wrote:
| Quote: |
| "... The InfoCenter format is so not user friendly for people wanting to read they can't see that the content is the same. ..." |
Amen!!
The InfoCenter is a literal implementation of the adage ... 'Not being able to see the forest for the trees!'
_________________
"Truth is ... grasping the virtually unconditioned",
Bernard F. Lonergan S.J.
(from book titled "Insight" subtitled "A Study of Human Understanding") |
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| George Carey |
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: from 2010 .... |
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Knight
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 500
Location: DC
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This discussion has a serious 'deja vu' all over again look to it!
http://www.mqseries.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=54593
So I will restate what I felt on this 2-years ago. (from July 2010)
| Quote: |
What if you just wanted to do some reading ... a PDF is the way to do it(next to a book anyway). A hyperlinked ... document is tedious to painful to 'read' if you can call it that.
It is a WIKI model useful for searching perhaps but if you wish to read in length and detail ... you want a book format ... not a busted up set of synopsized content snippets. |
_________________
"Truth is ... grasping the virtually unconditioned",
Bernard F. Lonergan S.J.
(from book titled "Insight" subtitled "A Study of Human Understanding") |
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| Vitor |
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Grand High Poobah
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA
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| PeterPotkay wrote: |
| Actually, some people do. I do. I stare at a computer screen long enough every day. I want the option to print a manual, sit on the coach and read. I want to be able to dog ear page 45, highlight something on 58 |
So we need a Kindle version?
| PeterPotkay wrote: |
| jot notes down in the column on page 65, and post sticky notes here and there as I find things I want to bookmark. |
Ok, the next generation Kindle.
_________________
Honesty is the best policy.
Insanity is the best defence. |
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