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Carl Bloy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Thoughts on this forum Reply with quote

Acolyte

Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 69
Location: England

Just thought i'd share my thoughts on this forum....

I've been reading this forum for a while now, even if I haven't participated much due to being too busy at work.

I agree this forum is invaluable to the WMQ community, but lately I think it's losing it's direction.

I agree people need to think and help themselves before posting and there's no better way to learn than try something out and see what happens.

There seems to be a growing trend to repeating the same answers over and over again, an example upgrade to WMQ 6. Yes we all know that 5.3 is out of support but there are reasons why not everyone can upgrade to the latest software...Do people really think that people want to run un-supported software....

Some of the answers are edging on the side of being rude and condisending when a simple pointing someone in the right direction politely would help.....

The use of these animations is rather annoying too, but thats peoples choice i suppose.....Personally I find them rather childish....

Also certain users appear to just copy other people and simply seem to post for the sake of it, to get their number of post counts up...

any way I could go on, but had to share my thoughts....

Back to work now....
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Vitor
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Thoughts on this forum Reply with quote

Grand High Poobah

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA

Carl Bloy wrote:
I agree people need to think and help themselves before posting and there's no better way to learn than try something out and see what happens.


Suggestions for encouraging & promoting this welcomed. Seriously.

Carl Bloy wrote:
There seems to be a growing trend to repeating the same answers over and over again, an example upgrade to WMQ 6. Yes we all know that 5.3 is out of support but there are reasons why not everyone can upgrade to the latest software...Do people really think that people want to run un-supported software....


No, but there's a growing trend to just lay back and accept the situation. If you're getting problems (and people seldom post on the forum unless they have problems) then this is exactly the time to push for the upgrade, rather than try to fix what you have. We should encourage ownership of the software by the individuals running it, who typically get the blame when it fails. As professionals, we have a duty of care towards management to point out the risks inherent in running out-of-support software.

Carl Bloy wrote:
Some of the answers are edging on the side of being rude and condisending when a simple pointing someone in the right direction politely would help.....


There are now links to the documentation on the top of the page & 2 search buttons. Suggestions for futher pointing mechanisms likewise welcomed.

Carl Bloy wrote:
The use of these animations is rather annoying too, but thats peoples choice i suppose.....Personally I find them rather childish....


I find them rather fun, and a good shorthand.

Carl Bloy wrote:
Also certain users appear to just copy other people and simply seem to post for the sake of it, to get their number of post counts up...


Yes, but what can you do? If you're that obsessed with post count you'll do it anyway. Still welcoming suggestions.
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elvis_gn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Padawan

Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 1905
Location: Dubai

Hi All,

Yes I do agree to a lot of comments made by Carl Bloy.

People don't seem to try hard to find the solution themselves, the worst being, ones who are told to refer to some particular documentation, or search the forum for some keywords, and still come back asking "Please explain the procedure"...Atleast make an attempt to explain what you understood, so that we are encouraged to correct or confirm the understandings...

The emoticons are getting a little bit too much...This is after all a technical forum, let's be a little serious, I wouldn't say don't crack jokes, but let your post have something valuable evenutally, and not be total gibberish...

For the number of posts...hmmm, I do have an idea, but it's really tough to implement so have never mentioned it before....When a post is made and a user gets it's resolution, he should be forced to "Close" the post. On closing, he should be asked whose response helped him the most, something like giving points to the ones who helped him resolve the issue. This is a perfect way to know who's responses you can trust in resolving your issues, and avoid useless posting...Plus, it will make our website search better as we can search the forum for only "Closed" topics...
Yes, I realize that making a poster return to close his topic and rate others is a little tough, but then unless the poster does that, don't let him ask a question again the future...that'll teach the lazy bugger

Only my opinions.

Regards.
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SAFraser
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaman

Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 742
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Hi Carl and all,

Every now and then, we have a discussion like this, about the forum. Sometimes we do get impatient with people who don't want to help themselves, it's true, or with someone who doesn't provide additional information as requested. (I'm guilty of occasional impatience, I admit it.)

A while back, when I was complaining that we were being too short-tempered, one of the grand masters said something to me that I've not forgotten: That if I want to impact the forum culture, then I need to step up and post more. It's a challenge, that's for sure! as I do both development and production work (by myself, no backup!), but I've remembered that advice and have tried to be more active, even if that means posting after-hours or on weekends.

I enjoy some of the light-hearted banter on the board, as I think it helps to foster the sense of community. I confess, I think the emoticons are a hoot and I don't object to them at all.

So, thanks Carl, for starting this thread as it is sure to spark discussion!

Shirley
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bruce2359
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poobah

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9442
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.

Many view this post site as a professional forum for MQ stuff. I know that I do.

From time to time, I get annoyed with the apparent tone of some of the more-professional posters (grand masters, you know who you are) who should know better how to respond.

I get annoyed, but much less so, with the newbies that will know better as they become more experienced with MQ.

I agree that telling someone to read the manual - without specifying which manual - is flat rude. Better to name the manual, or provide a url link. Even better: quote some text from the manual to shed some light on the issue.

I see lots of frustration with posts that offer near zero information - no platform, no WMQ version, csd, no error messages/codes, no error log data (why didn't IBM call these .err instead of .log!). Why then didn't the poster look up the messages? It seems that this post site is often the first place to look.

One problem with the written word is that it is nearly impossible to differentiate anger from sarcasm from humor from insanity. Emoticons don't really take away from the wrong impression of the written word. I see them as something like: "can't you take a joke?" or some other juvenile quip.

In summary, we're all human - except every fourth UNIX sysadmin. See? A misunderstanding!
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Gaya3
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedi

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 2493
Location: Boston, US

It would be fun and good, to search a bit of their issues, and trying to resolve themselves.

Proper understanding of the problem and express the same is also an art.
indeed Resolving too.

Second comes to a stage where you are really struggling, there are some bad times where you are running out of time, to get it resolved in jiffies.
This time its highly necessary to service them in most warm way.

Healthy advise and healthy critics are always welcome, and we should take that in a good spirit.

Emoticons are fine, even i have seen some of them have been taken off.
Its more of fun, giving different way of communication.

Are we getting rude?
I won't agree, The question is why people are pretending to be very childish here?
Be a professional, do or dig the issue, come back with geniuine questions.
Listening attitude is another one more skill to be developed.

Most of them who uses this forum are pretty experienced it. So no need to explain.

Investing some time and proper way of tackling the issues will help all the way.

not the least: Here in this mqseries.net, affluence of information are there. I learned my best skills from here.

Note:IBM WebSphere Family Tools, are not that one you can learn with in a day or two.

Regards
Gayathri
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tleichen
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yatiri

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 663
Location: Center of the USA

I have to disagree with Carl for one main reason. I have always understood the purpose of this forum to be the sharing of knowledge. By that I mean a technical exchange of those that are versed, at least to some degree, in Websphere MQ. I believe it has to take a stand against trying to educate everyone in what are clearly the basics.

As Vitor pointed out, the necessary reading materials are readily available and links to them are on this site. If this forum started trying to educate everyone that was clearly a beginner with little or no MQ knowledge, then the tremendous volume of posts would not only overwhelm the web administrators, but would also make finding more useful items like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I would also point to the Mission Statement on the home page of this site. It states: "...Our mission is to offer WMQ Professionals a technical forum to facilitate the sharing of WebSphere and MQ knowledge." The keyword there is "Professionals". That word categorically indicates a certain amount of expertise!
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Mehrdad
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Master

Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Europe

I have certainly been watching the posts here and wish there was more of it since the initial few.

I invite more of you to please send in your views.

Thanks;
Mehrdad
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exerk
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedi Council

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339

tleichen wrote:
I have to disagree with Carl for one main reason. I have always understood the purpose of this forum to be the sharing of knowledge. By that I mean a technical exchange of those that are versed, at least to some degree, in Websphere MQ. I believe it has to take a stand against trying to educate everyone in what are clearly the basics.


I concur, and I spent a long time reading the fora before I joined and ventured any form of contribution to the site.

I do not take issue with those whom have made an effort to get to the bottom of a problem, and are confused by the documentation, or are unable to convert it in practice - I think it's fair to say we've all been there at some time in our lives - I've had a 'doh' moment on here myself.

Where I do take issue is when a 'post first, think later, if at all' attitude is apparent, the posts are placed in preference to the reading of the manuals or use of Mr. Google, or the posts asking bread-and-butter questions emanate from areas that are clearly customer support - I hope their clients don't look at the site to closely!

My apologies to tleichen for the partial quote...
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Carl Bloy
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acolyte

Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 69
Location: England

One point I actually made in my posting was....

Quote:
I agree people need to think and help themselves before posting and there's no better way to learn than try something out and see what happens.


I agree with tleichen & exerk...

My point is I think there's ways and means of giving guidance while making someone go and learn for themselves and think first.....

As people say this is a professional forum, so everyone should act accordingly when posting....
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Vitor
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grand High Poobah

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 26093
Location: Texas, USA

Carl Bloy wrote:
My point is I think there's ways and means of giving guidance while making someone go and learn for themselves and think first.....


I repeat, your thoughts are welcomed. Anything you feel we havn't tried. Seriously.
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bruce2359
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poobah

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 9442
Location: US: west coast, almost. Otherwise, enroute.

Quote:
The keyword there is "Professionals". That word categorically indicates a certain amount of expertise!

More important than expertise is professional behavior. I gather that is the subject of this and previous posts.

Professional behavior includes (but is not limited to): patience, understanding, nurturing, guidance, ethics.

The most visible behavior, and the one most prone to misunderstanding, is communication-style (not refereing to transport and channels here).

Technical folks, doing great technical stuff, and thinking on the correct side of their brains, often fail at communication.
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exerk
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedi Council

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339

Vitor wrote:
I repeat, your thoughts are welcomed. Anything you feel we havn't tried. Seriously.


The Mods will probably hate me for this, but...

What about a 'parking' area? A forum where all questions are put, with the intended forum in the subject line along with the subject, inspected by the Mods and moved to the appropriate forum or discarded.

I'm not sure if this has been suggested before (if so, apologies) or is administratively or logistically unachievable.
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fjb_saper
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grand High Poobah

Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 20729
Location: LI,NY

exerk wrote:

The Mods will probably hate me for this, but...

What about a 'parking' area? A forum where all questions are put, with the intended forum in the subject line along with the subject, inspected by the Mods and moved to the appropriate forum or discarded.

I'm not sure if this has been suggested before (if so, apologies) or is administratively or logistically unachievable.


Yes we will (hate you). Our time is freely given and we don't have an unlimited supply of it. We still have a dayjob to keep...
Most of the posts are being made in the right forum and we don't mind moving the odd post or 2. Having to move every post would bring the site to a stand still...

Just my opinion...
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exerk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedi Council

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 6339

More than happy to be shot down in flames for that suggestion

I don't think there is one easy solution, and the site seems to work very well as it is. What is heartening is that some newcomers seem to get it very quickly, e.g. http://www.mqseries.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42882, and therefore set a fine example to others joining.

I have no wish to add to the Mods workload - there are more of them than me, and that aint good odds!
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